Tanks, tank and more tanks!

[gingerbee]

I am happy with my gas setup, the installation + tank cost me 3300 for a Bradford white 50-gallon 40,000Btu high-efficiency power vent, I priced the heater out myself it was 2500-3500 just for the heater.

 

[clshades]

Actually, that's not true - electric tanks are 100% efficient, in that 100% of the electricity that's going in is being converted to heat - it's just that they're limited to using 18.8 amps, and there's only so fast 18.8 amps of electricity will heat water.

Gas, on the other hand, has a much higher capacity to heat, so it heats faster. But it's less efficient, even the high efficiency HWT's lose some energy up the chimney.

Also, here is a great explanation r.e. the two heating elements, and how/why they work.

HE is 95% - 97.5% efficient with the by-product being mainly water. Most electricity in Canada is generated by natural gas. By any standard, gas grid systems are far cheaper to maintain than electric grids, so at the end of the day, gas is not only cheaper, it's far more efficient. This is the conundrum for me personally.

On demand electric water heaters use an incredible amount of power especially in winter. 100Amps+ most houses are 150-200 amps. The simplicity of electric is great, however, swapping to electric from gas later is going to be incredibly expensive for some people.

I had a meeting with a customer from Alberta this morning and he said the power grid doesn't support the province as is. So what is the solution? Force electric tanks too?
1,633,220 occupied private dwellings in Alberta. they will need to produce 50-70 million more AMPS by 2030. Good luck

 

[clshades]

There's a bunch of math I don't have time for right now, however, there's a loss of energy converting gas to electricity. A gas appliance doesn't need any sort of conversion. Natural gas comes straight out of the ground and is a by-product of making other fuel types with very little effort other than a seperator.

Mark my words... one day this whole bandwagon of electric everything is going to be a HUGE issue. All ginger needs is a battery back up to make hot water during a power outage.

 

[clshades]

Here's a tidbit for you.... This is terrible imo.
About 45%. Natural gas generators normally employ a gas turbine combined with a steam generator to produce efficiencies of around 55%. Some state of the art systems can reach 60% but 55% is a good working average These combined systems generate around 25% of global electricity.

So no, electric tanks are NOT 100% efficient.

 

[great_big_abyss]

I'm not arguing with you about gas tanks vs electric tanks - mine is currently gas, and when it needs to be replaced, I'll be replacing it with gas also - gas is cheap here in Manitoba. Then again, so is our electricity. And all our power comes from hydroelectricity, so there's none of that pesky gas turbine inefficiency calculation at play.

 

[gingerbee]

I understand what you are both saying "great" I think is saying that power flowing into the tank converts 100% of its energy to heat with the heating coils, the problem is where does that power come from if it comes from natural gas then that conversion has to be taken into account as "CLshades" is saying. (well I think that is what you'll are saying, where the power comes from of course matters)

Here in Orillia we produce all our power and 80-90% is hydro but the other 10-20% is natural gas turbines from what I have been told
(I am not 100% sure, just what I have been told).

One of the nice things about gas furnace/water is the generator I need doesn't have to be huge I can get away with 4000-7000 watts because of my gas.

 

[Soultribunal]

All things being equal, gas is better at heating up the water tank in terms of time. But it is still a finite resource that we will eventually run out of.

One would hope that technology in the near future will solve this with better electric water tanks. AS well, costs will be negligible for myself and the family once the Solar is up along with a few other things. So operational costs at least for me should be net zero.

Not that I have a problem with gas, but I have a problem with the constant reliance on finitie resources as a whole.

We will run out, and the sooner we stop pretending that is not true the better off we will be.

-ST

PS - I own my Water Heater. Bought it outright as soon as we pruchased the house because the less I pay monthly as a OPEX Cost the better off I am.

 

[gingerbee]

Well, we're getting into the weeds now with power generation, its varying forms and the fuels we use to get that power. the problem with using gas to get power is we are much better off using that gas directly like in gas water heaters when compared to using it for generators to produce electrical power for said water heaters.

 

[Sagath]

ere's a tidbit for you.... This is terrible imo.
About 45%. Natural gas generators normally employ a gas turbine combined with a steam generator to produce efficiencies of around 55%. Some state of the art systems can reach 60% but 55% is a good working average These combined systems generate around 25% of global electricity.

So no, electric tanks are NOT 100% efficient.

Well, we're getting into the weeds now with power generation, its varying forms and the fuels we use to get that power. the problem with using gas to get power is we are much better off using that gas directly like in gas water heaters when compared to using it for generators to produce electrical power for said water heaters.

Exactly ginger. I think the argument shouldnt be "NG vs Electric". It should be electric vs electric.

The point is to get off gas by using non-carbon products to do so. Not by whats more 'efficient'. A renewable energy source (Hydro-electric, solar) has zero drawbacks for producing Hot water, and is nearly 100% efficient, with an effective Co2 footprint of zero.

We heat our homes with Gas (as a majority anyways) for the same reason. Its more efficient to move the gas there then the equivalent electrical energy. That doesnt mean that we shouldnt try to get off carbon use, it simply means we need to make better ways to generate energy.

 

[gingerbee]

I don't even know if we will see that happen in my/our lifetime and since we are still using it I think using it cleanly is all we can do at this point, I hate that Canada has gotten rid of several tax bonus for solar and batteries, I was talking to one of my gas fitters and he use to be a solar installer but got out of it since the market has pretty much collapsed ( his words ) he said he went from busy all the time to not at all over the last few years after covid